Better ask Joe…

Originally posted 3rd September 2018 

If you’re a fan of The Wine Show and found yourself thinking “that Joe Fattorini seems like a nice guy”, then I’m here to tell you that he really is!  We met Joe at a tasting, had a chat about the show and hung out for a while.  Friendly, chatty, knowledgeable and generous with his time – yep… definitely a nice guy.

Of course, that was his error as I set about stalking him on twitter and bouncing a few ideas off him which somehow ended up with him making the offer for me to email him a few questions to answer.  I can only assume he saw this as a cheaper alternative to taking out a restraining order. 

Anyway, here they are. Five fairly average questions. Five very well considered answers…

Here at BinTwo we try really hard to avoid using wine-bore jargon in the way we describe our wines. But we’re not immune to the odd “pencil shavings” slipping into our notes and sometimes I fear I may describe things too plainly. I know we could do better. Any top tips on striking the right balance between describing wines credibly but in a user-friendly way?

Joe - You SHOULD use pencil shavings in your tasting notes. Especially if it actually smells of pencil shavings. I had a Crozes Hermitage at a restaurant (Blandford Comptoir- owned by super-sommelier Xavier Rousset MS) last week that absolutely reeked of black olives. You need to highlight these things. But… when you ask people what they like about a wine they pretty much never say “well, I like a wine that smells of pencil shavings and black olive”. They say things like “I like a big wine” or “a smooth wine” or “zesty wines”. 

Texture matters much more than aroma for most people when they’re thinking of preference. I like to see how I can expand my lexicon of textures. “Velveteen” “sandpaper tannins” “lissom”. Also it’s much more reliable. People are consistent in describing textures. But our ability to consistently name smells is much less reliable. It doesn’t mean we’re bad tasters.

There’s a fabulous new study by Asifa Majid at Raboud University in the Netherlands and Nicole Kruspe at Lund University in Sweden. They did work with a hunter gatherer trip called the Jahai in Malaysia. The found the Jahai could consistently name aromas accurately. But an agrarian group called the Semelai with a similar language nearby struggled. Much like people in the West. It seems like we lost the ability to make close assessments of smell when we started farming.

Obviously at BinTwo we’re generally awesome in every way (ahem).  But what would you tell our customers they should expect from us as a good independent wine merchant?  And, put another way, what’s your biggest gripe with wine shops? (Careful now, Joe). 

Joe - All wine merchants – and I’ve been one since the early 1990’s – have one HUGE problem. We love wine. We live wine. Wine runs through our veins almost as literally as it does metaphorically. And the same is true of some of our customers. But… there are an awful lot people who just want a nice drink. Most people just want a lovely drink. And wine nuts like us really struggle to understand that. Most people are not as naturally as enthused with wine as we are. Great merchants take a bit of time to understand their customers’ “enthusiasm level” and tailor their advice accordingly. It’s a bit like selling a car. Enthusiasts want to know what the horsepower and torque is. In the same way we want to know what sort of oak wine was fermented in. But a lot of valuable and brilliant customers want to know if the car comes in metallic blue and will still look good in a year. Just like some wine customers want to know if it goes with quiche and their boyfriend will like it. It takes a bit of empathy to get that balance right. Empathy. That’s the word. That’s what good wine merchants need.

Even in spite of the general tomfoolery that some of us routinely display, our customers really do seem to trust us to help guide them to a great wine that they’re likely to enjoy (thank goodness for Kate and the rest of the team).  What tips would you offer our customers to help them get the very best out of their wine when drinking at home?

Joe - Can I give you a weird one? It’s something that may help you guide people as much and people be guided. One of the great myths – and I absolutely believe this – is that people are on a quest to find the finest, grandest, greatest value-for-money wine they can. Actually, I think people are far more motivated by a fear of disappointment than a determination to maximise pleasure. Great tasting notes, analysis and food matching don’t help people in those circumstances. What really matters is a personal promise, a solemn oath that the human being in front of you endorses this choice. And that it’s right for the occasion. We match wine to occasion more than anything. Am I relaxing with my partner with this? Impressing a friend? Looking for a gastronomic treat? Seeking adventure? What’s really helpful is for someone – like you and your team –to say “in those circumstance, this is what I would do”. That really makes a difference.

Natural wine – I’m deeply sceptical.  Champions of natural wine say that it is the purest expression of the grape.  I say a raw potato might be the purest expression of a spud but development over time has proven to my satisfaction that it tastes better when it’s baked and slathered in butter!  Am I missing something?  Am I a philistine? Guide me wise one…

Joe - Some of the loveliest bottles I’ve had have been natural wines. And unquestionably most of the worst wines I’ve ever had have been natural wines. And that’s their problem. And their charm.  If you’re an enthusiast – or at least a particular sort of enthusiast – there’s a great excitement about finding one of those magic wine moments. And when natural wine is good it’s quite extraordinarily good. But most of us want a basic level of assurance that a bottle of wine you’ve spent a half decent sum of money on isn’t going to take like a cross between horse urine and cider vinegar. And natural wine often can’t give you that assurance. I don’t belong to that sort of fundamentalist sect that necessarily believes that because it’s natural it’s good. And what really infuriates me is when people say, “you just don’t understand it”. Of course, I do you complete clown. It just tastes like I’ve been sick in my mouth.”

2017 saw the double whammy of an historically poor harvest in most of Europe and the fall of the pound following BREXIT.  We’re now seeing the associated price increases flow through from suppliers. We love a “new find” at BinTwo and relish getting behind wines from less well known origins.  Any top tips on where we should look to find great value, interesting wines in 2018?

Joe - This is an interesting one. It’s not a fashionable view, but I think the poor harvest is a bigger issue than the value of the pound. Volumes in 2017 are down 30%, 40%… more in some places. It was an extraordinary vintage. And so early too. I was meeting producers last year who’d harvested in July and August rather than September. That will push up prices, but more importantly, push us all into new regions. 

The Pound feels low, and is lower than we’ve been used to it. But it’s not much lower than the average value against the Euro between 2010 and 2014. But the duty escalator and coupled with the rising pound between 2014 to 2016 means we’ve really felt the return to a that lower level with a serious bump. I blame government tax policy more than Brexit for that pain. What really matters is finding interesting wines now. 

My gut feel is that Eastern Europe and Australia are two early winners. Those semi-aromatic whites like Furmint blends from Slovenia or straight Furmints from Hungary. New lighter and fresher whites and tamer premium reds from Australia too, filling in the gaps left by Chianti Classico or Macon where vintages have been rough. I suspect varieties to look out for are Verdejo, Vermentino, Bobal and all sorts from Aus. There are some great Fianos and fresh Chardonnays and I loved the different styles of Shiraz at the recent Australia Day Tastings in London.”

It’s been interesting revisiting this post in November 2020 as I lift it from our old website and paste it to the new. Joe’s answers really struck a chord with me back in 2018 and they came at a time when we were just finding our feet in the trade and carving our own way. But life often rolls on, life gets in the way and following through on good intentions can get lost along the way. So it’s quietly reassuring to look back two years hence and realise that we did - at least to some extent - follow through:

1.  Use terms and language that customers can easily relate to - think ‘textures’.

Two years on and rather than being organised by country and region, our shop and website are arranged around terms that people commonly use when they ask us for recommendations. And while I didn’t think about it until transferring this blog post onto the new website, those terms are broadly textural - ‘Big and Bold’, ‘Smooth and Ripe’, ‘Bright and Fresh’. It’s almost like Joe knows his stuff…

2. Match our level of “wine enthusiasm” to that of the customer in front of us.

Joe’s response to this question really struck a chord with me.  As long term followers may recall, we sort of fell into the wine trade 5 years ago so we had to compensate for our relative lack of experience and knowledge.  I think we’ve done that by speaking to people in plain English at their “wine level”  – frankly we had little other choice in the early days. We found that people responded really well – often with a palpable sense of relief.

It’s driven my recruiting decisions too. We’ve continued to look for people who know how to look after other people and make them feel comfortable.  It could be because we’re a hybrid merchant/bar, or it could be because we’re in Padstow. But those traits seem to be much more important than their wine knowledge.  We can teach staff about wine but it’s hard to teach people to be nice, friendly and approachable.

3. Sell our wines with a genuine personal promise that we think this particular wine is right for the occasion the customer has described to us.

We completely buy into the concept of the “personal promise – a solemn oath” philosophy.  It underpins the way we buy all of our wines – do we like them?  Can we all get behind them?  There’s no “padding” on our shelves – nothing bought in bulk even if the wine was a bit average but the price was right.  No “manager’s special” against which the team have sales targets.  Our philosophy has developed over the last two years with our mantra of sourcing ‘good wines, made sustainably by good people’.

4. Natural wine – confirms my thinking that they can be great but are often awful.  I think you deserve a better level of assurance that it’s all going to be alright when you hand over your money.

Unsurprisingly Joe puts it much better than me.  He’s summed up nicely why I’ve found it hard to get behind natural wines in a big way. It’s just too much of a gamble for me to ask you to take when you’re spending a reasonable chunk of money with us. That variation from one bottle to the next, often variation in quality between bottles in the same case of six, is just a bit too much uncertainty for my liking. Biodynamic wines however… now that’s a different matter all together! So over the last two years we’ve broadened our range of biodynamic wines. Some of those qualify as ‘natural’ but the producers don’t shout about it. Largely because they don’t need to… they just produce great wines and let them do the talking.

5. In the context of BREXIT and a tough 2017 harvest we’re going to have to work harder at sourcing great value wines for you.  Luckily we enjoy that bit!

We did work harder at sourcing great value wines from alternative locations. Luckily we still enjoy that bit! As for the implications of BREXIT… well I guess we’ll see in a few months.